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| Author | Messages | |
Jim Posts:2922
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/11/2008 7:31 PM |
Alert | I spent today at the Borgata fielding meetings and other forms of business. While I was awaiting some of those meetings I got into a discussion with a few pro players who happened to be there as well as other local regulars who I consider to be very solid, thinking players.
The discussion started out as usual, and then moved into one of my favorite topics. That is how people learn to learn this game.
Any thoughts? I don't feel like typing them here now because I could fill a novella with them, but I'd like to hear what some of you think on this.
Then I will add my two sense.... For what it's worth | | http://riggstad-nutstraight.blogspot.com/index.html
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| DiggerB Posts:1551
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/12/2008 11:28 AM |
Alert | Most people learn through the school of hard knocks probably. I read, I listen, and try to look objectively at my own choices. The 3rd is the hardest to do.
Id love to have a Mentor. Record or be observed and then go over every hand, how I bet, what was I thinking, etc....But who has the time for that????
Sort of a Poker school. | | Just Bust a Move | |
| hansgow Posts:357
 MVP
My Poker Profile
 | | 12/12/2008 1:26 PM |
Alert | I think having a teacher is the best way to learn anything. They will teach the quick do's and do not's that will keep you from making fatal mistakes as you learn to imrprove your game. Naturally very few of us can go to a teacher that we can depend on to give us all the necessary infromation you need, therefore I can just say the way I learned which is watch a lot of TV and listen to what many of pros say in between hands, read a book, and then hit the tables and worry less about how much your winning and more about why your winning. If your losing and you can't figure it out, take time off, watch more poker on TV and read another book or reread the book you already read.
I'm not sure how to learn to learn anything. Sounds like a double learnative. But the best way to learn how to do something well is by going to someone who does that thing well and have them teach you. | | | |
| ripjgarcia Posts:732
 MVP

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/12/2008 3:00 PM |
Alert | I think its a step by step process.. I started playing the game about 3 and 1/2 years ago at a friends house for a friendly 5$ buy-in amongst 6-8 guys. About 6 months later, people told me about the games in the bars.  So I went to a place with 75 people and finished 2nd. The funny part is, I had no idea what I was doing.. I played ever ace, I limped weak out of position, I would call all-ins with any two face cards. But I knew I liked the game and needed to learn more about it. So I bought Harrington on Hold'em Volume 1, read it, and took what I read to games. I was getting more points, and some wins, but I really don't think my game was solid at that point. I think its when I started taking mental notes and playing the other players and not just my cards where I started to win... alot... I still don't know everything.. I still make tons of mistakes. I still overestimate the chances of my opponent folding King Queen for half his chips to a reraise.  But I'm getting better, and I feel like I'm more and more in synch with whats going on around me in the game.. I don't know what the next step is in the game. What is the natural learning progression?   | | Monkeyman2121/KRichads in 2012!
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| Sloaka Posts:38
 Member
My Poker Profile
 | | 12/12/2008 3:51 PM |
Alert | I started playing in '96 before the initial poker craze (Rounders) and obviously pre-Moneymaker...
The book of choice: Winning Low-Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones. It's a well-written book that instantly translated into consistent winning for me at the 3-6 and 5-10 level. A book that is by today's standards a bit archaic since most people don't play limit holdem. Which is at the heart of my point here...
Mention limit holdem in a circle of present-day rounders, and they'll all bash it. "It sucks", "can't push anybody out of a hand"...blah blah blah. Most people just dove right into No Limit. And in doing so, they missed a ton of basics along the way. I always equate it with trying to learn chess before you even know how to play checkers. I see just pure fundamental errors all the time in No-Limit games that just wouldn't happen if these people were equipped with the basic tools that limit holdem teaches you.
If you've never read the book, I recommend it highly; even if you're not planning on playing low-limit holdem or even if you think your fundamentals are quite sound. And if you never even gave limit holdem a good try....go ahead. You might find you're better at limit than no-limit. Who cares what's fashionable? It's all about winning.... | | | |
| FisherM Posts:1681
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/12/2008 3:57 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jim on 12/11/2008 7:31 PM I spent today at the Borgata fielding meetings and other forms of business. While I was awaiting some of those meetings I got into a discussion with a few pro players who happened to be there as well as other local regulars who I consider to be very solid, thinking players.
The discussion started out as usual, and then moved into one of my favorite topics. That is how people learn to learn this game.
Any thoughts? I don't feel like typing them here now because I could fill a novella with them, but I'd like to hear what some of you think on this.
Then I will add my two sense.... For what it's worth
"How do you learn to learn the game?" Am I missing something, or is there a typo in the subject and in your post? Did you just mean "learn to play" or did you actually mean "learn to learn to play"? Because both can be valid questions, with very different answers... | | http://pokerdegen.blogspot.com/ | |
| Housermoney Posts:87
 Member
My Poker Profile
 | | 12/12/2008 4:02 PM |
Alert | I am the classic Moneymaker poker player... I was only 17 when Moneymaker won back in 2003. I started out with playing the basic $5 tourneys at home and of course logged hundreds if not thousands of online poker hours. I turned 20 and played in my first live tournament other than the home games. I entered in the 100 +15 tournament up at Turning Stone ( since I was not yet 21). There was 370 people that entered. I ended taking 2nd place. I was nervous through the first hour but quickly settled down.....I prefer the live tournaments over the online ones anyday.
The past 2 years I have really been reading alot of books ( Super system 1, 2 ) ( Any Daniel Negraneau or Phil Hellmuth book). I have not played in a online game in the past 2 years. I have mainly been playing in home games and casino tourneys ( now that I am 22). I have just started playing poker at RC in September and have quickly found success with a good outlook on qualifying for the TOC with the other 399 people.
I have learned alot more sitting at the tables with some of the more seasoned poker players ( not meaning age, more so experience). I especially would like to thank TD Jason. He runs the games at the Sinkhole Saloon that I frequently play at on Sundays and Mondays. He has filled my head with more in depth strategies and ways of thinking.
I would LOVE to be able to pick apart Daniel Negraneau 's brain ( sorry about the spelling). He is my favorite poker player and I personally have met him 1 time but nothing more than a hello.
So I would have to say that I have found multiple different platforms to improve my poker game. I am going to have to say that the only way to get comfortable with the game is to play in a live tournament.
Good topic. I enjoyed this discussion. | | | |
| ajcrdstr24 Posts:620
 MVP

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/12/2008 4:27 PM |
Alert | Posted By ripjgarcia on 12/12/2008 3:00 PM I think its a step by step process.. I started playing the game about 3 and 1/2 years ago at a friends house for a friendly 5$ buy-in amongst 6-8 guys. About 6 months later, people told me about the games in the bars.  So I went to a place with 75 people and finished 2nd. The funny part is, I had no idea what I was doing.. I played ever ace, I limped weak out of position, I would call all-ins with any two face cards. But I knew I liked the game and needed to learn more about it. So I bought Harrington on Hold'em Volume 1, read it, and took what I read to games. I was getting more points, and some wins, but I really don't think my game was solid at that point. I think its when I started taking mental notes and playing the other players and not just my cards where I started to win... alot... I still don't know everything.. I still make tons of mistakes. I still overestimate the chances of my opponent folding King Queen for half his chips to a reraise.  But I'm getting better, and I feel like I'm more and more in synch with whats going on around me in the game.. I don't know what the next step is in the game. What is the natural learning progression?   My learning experience has been similar to Scott's. I started playing friendly games while I was in college. A few months after I graduated a friend of mine told me about a free tournament only a couple minutes from my house. The first time I played I not only played every ace, but I played every face card including J2 and garbage like that. I didn't know any better, and I got really lucky and won the first tournament I ever played. From then on I was hooked, but after a few more games reality kicked in and I realized that I had to analyze the way I was playing.
I'm not much of a reader so I didn't buy any books. I did watch TV broadcasts and read some poker articles online like the FullTilt learn from the pros articles.
The biggest learning experience has been simply being very observant in every tournament I play in. Poker is much like life, you learn something new every day.
And I knew you would slip that King Queen hand in somewhere in the forums, Scott!
| | "It takes courage not only to make decisions, but to live with those decisions afterward." ~Coach Mike Krzyzewski
http://www.youtube.com/ajcrdstr24 http://racing-reference.info/blogmaster.jsp http://ajcrdstr24.blogspot.com http://flickr.com/photos/ajcrdstr2009/sets/ | |
| snakster Posts:2308
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/12/2008 5:52 PM |
Alert | I'm a natural...a savant...a freak of nature if you will. Just one of the lucky few I guess.
| | Never try to teach a pig to fly. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. | |
| snakster Posts:2308
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/12/2008 5:53 PM |
Alert | By the way, it's two CENTS.
| | Never try to teach a pig to fly. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. | |
| Jim Posts:2922
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/13/2008 2:35 PM |
Alert | These are all good histories of how you learned, and your experiences along the way of this fantastic game we play. And some went into depth of what mediums they used to learn the game.
But my question was not a typo. Everyone who plays this game, no matter how long is on a journey of learning and re-learning this game.
In 1998 after Rounders came out, hold'em became a little more popular in the casinos. Then after 2003, it really exploded. Moneymaker was the catalyst, but online poker really was the main reason players flocked to playing. It offered the ability to play thousands of hands, anonymously, and with very little exposure to risk of a bankroll.
Professionals alike all through the early 80's and into the 90's had to relearn the game in a sense that there was now a new player involved. That is the guy or gal who was just starting out, saw the equivalent of 5 years worth of hands in the span of 6 months, and thought they knew every little trick there was.
Standard cliches presented themselves throughout player personalities such as the young hot shot who played with his mahood (between his legs) more than his head. The kid who thought everyhand was a pissing contest and not just card selection, board texture, and betting patterns.
The pros quickly realized that they were likely to be going against someone who didn't understand what a bet meant, in the traditional sense that they learned, were taught, and had experienced throughout their careers.
With the advent of a whole slew of books, and the reinvetion of old classics because of the popularity of the game, things such as tells, started to not follow a pattern of what was orignally written. Mainly because a new comer would read a book that said sitting forward in a very aggressive nature meant that you were actually weak. SO they changed it up. And when they were strong, leaned forward in a naturely aggressive nature.
The poker world was virtually turned upsidedown. Then you had some of the professionals just really lose focus on their games and instead, try to cash in on the poker boom as busisness persons. They spent less time on their games and more time in front of proposals, investors, and other start up types trying to figure out how to add to their bankroll without facing a thousand college kids who thought they could play the game at a professional level because they built an online bankroll by aggro-donking their way through a field of 5,000 in a $1,000 buy-in that they micro sat'd into.
Now all of this is a good history, but it doesn't address the original question.
Reading a book is great. Putting it into practice is great as well. But this game is so complex, how do you learn to learn it? If you need to replace an engine you can get instructions on how to do so. It's not rocket science. But I guarantee those instructions assume that you also are handy with a wrench, have a garage, and other professional equipment that is needed.
So, are you the type that analytically looks at mathematical equations and quantative game theory and try to apply it to all hands? Or are you the guy who would rather feel your way around the table? That is play against the player, or the board, or the bets and stacks?
Do you try to apply all aspects available to each hand, session, or tournament? Do you think it applies across the board in every session you have? How do you test those theories? Do you have the ability to spend for information, or are you more likely to guess at it?
This game is a very easy game to "play". As the old saying goes, it takes a minute to learn... So I assume, based off of what I have seen in my years of playing that any swinging dick can, and does sits down and gets after it. But what I also have seen is a psycological phenomenon where people will play, and pick up terms, and sayings, and not necessarily understand them completely, or at all. They only know they exist, have some rudimentary sense of their meaning and possibly, value, and spew them like they are a seasoned player. When in reality, they are just repeating something they heard in a conversation during an event that they are now experiencing, and it seems to fit.
Pot odds are not the same as implied odds. Yet I can't tell you how many times I have heard someone say I had implied odds. Someone else correct them and say, "you mean pot odds", and they respond with "whatever". Now, I am not ripping this type of person. What I am pointing out however, is that they have not yet learned, to learn how to play this game.Â
So the point I am trying to make is what steps do you take to ensure that what you have consumed from books, watching, reading, and/or  listening to others, are put into practice that will actually make you profitable, succesful, or just plain confident?
I see it this way. A baby went from crawling to running. Never learned how to walk. He gets up and goes right into a sprint. as soon as he slows down, he falls. Because he never learned the basics of balance. Poker players today have exhibited that type of behavior.
Sloak makes a fantastic point with his limit vs no limit example. I'm not saying give up no limit for limit and re-learn things. But it is a good example and a game worth trying that will give you a different outlook and probably better your no limit play.  I also know most would be better off by occasionaly dusting off the poker for beginners book and objectively looking for things that may seem elementary, but would probably surprise you after a little thinking about it.
Be a thinking player, and learn this game. It will help you in everything. Not just the game.
| | http://riggstad-nutstraight.blogspot.com/index.html
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| Gorilla Posts:734
 MVP
My Poker Profile
 | | 12/13/2008 3:56 PM |
Alert | | another point worth noting that shouldn't be overlooked....cash games vs tournament play...very, very different | | | |
| DiggerB Posts:1551
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/15/2008 9:37 AM |
Alert | In your history lesson, you forgot one change Jim. More women players. Yes i know all that ERA stuff, but men and women (based off nuture not nature) tend to compete differently. Women have their on versions of "pissing contests". Ok Im showing off my Anthropology background.
| | Just Bust a Move | |
| Jim Posts:2922
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My Poker Profile
 | | 12/15/2008 10:47 AM |
Alert | Posted By DiggerB on 12/15/2008 9:37 AM In your history lesson, you forgot one change Jim. More women players. Yes i know all that ERA stuff, but men and women (based off nuture not nature) tend to compete differently. Women have their on versions of "pissing contests". Ok Im showing off my Anthropology background.
True digger, but poker has always had women. So just as there are more men, there are woman. The dynamic in dmeographics hasn't changed all that much. It's more of the influx and marketing and media surroundig it.
Before you were lucky to get one table of a holdem game in a casino poker room. Now there are 30 of them and you're lucky to get a table of any non holdem game.
The amount of woman are still in proportion as a percentage to the over all playership. Oddly enough. I am trying to find a report I was given a while back that proves that. Once I find it I will post.
| | http://riggstad-nutstraight.blogspot.com/index.html
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| Sloaka Posts:38
 Member
My Poker Profile
 | | 12/15/2008 10:50 AM |
Alert | It also amazes me how many people jump into games, especially gambling, without doing any amount of reading, studying, research, etc.
Why would anybody risk their hard earned money on something without knowing at least something about it first?
I like using blackjack as an example here too. Before I ever sat down at a blackjack table, I read up and studied the basic strategy charts...you know...what to do when you have a particular hand and the dealer is showing a particular card. Still amazes me to this day the number of people who play blackjack without being armed with this knowledge. Why? It's out there for you! Just read a book for crissake!
Same with poker. I read that Lee Jones book before heading down to the Taj for the first time. It was inconceivable for me to even try without reading up on something.
But I attribute the recklessness in getting started a lot to the invention of the pocket cameras. Somehow, people thought because they could see the hole cards that it provided all the insight they needed to get started. After all, its right there on the screen! It's easy to see what to do and what not to do. Let's face it: the Moneymaker story inspired it, but it wouldn't have even been on TV and wouldn't have been as captivating without the pocket cameras. They are the single biggest invention responsible for the boom of poker. And, in my opinion, they have taken a once ultra-skill game and turned it way more reckless for all. | | | |
| DiggerB Posts:1551
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/15/2008 12:01 PM |
Alert | After yesterday, I question my own play. Once again I was in a game (the satellite) where I just never seemed to get out of Neutral Gear.
Which leads me to this forum....learning how to learn. I think the biggest thing is first to recognize a problem. Then learning where you can find the info to fix the problem, then appying that new knowledge. I think I am a bit like those old time players, I learned theory, learned patience, formed a tight/pasive image (which I belive Ive changed to tight/aggressive now with those that pay attention)....but still I find myself game after game sitting at a table where the loose/reckless young punk players have Monster Stacks. You can't outlast/trap them all it seems. I do find in games with longer blind rounds, I can do better against them though.
So I think its time to learn to learn how the pros changed their approach to the game when the Moneymaker era came into being.
| | Just Bust a Move | |
| DiggerB Posts:1551
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/15/2008 12:07 PM |
Alert | And Jim I love your statement about people confusing Knowledge of Lingo with Knowledge.
Pot Odds and Implied Pot Odds are the two of the biggest things i hear people talking about but rarely understanding. Post Flop just cause you have 5:1 to call with your junk cards still doesnt give you Pot Odds unless you have the proper amount of Outs to justify going for the odds. | | Just Bust a Move | |
| DiggerB Posts:1551
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/15/2008 12:10 PM |
Alert | | And on the issue of Women. The biggest thing that RPT women do in general, that puzzles me, is not going for the throat. Why check down the Nuts after the river card??? Bet when you have the nuts. | | Just Bust a Move | |
| ripjgarcia Posts:732
 MVP

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/16/2008 7:29 PM |
Alert | Posted By DiggerB on 12/15/2008 12:10 PM And on the issue of Women. The biggest thing that RPT women do in general, that puzzles me, is not going for the throat. Why check down the Nuts after the river card??? Bet when you have the nuts. It ain't just RPT... Remember the Tilly, Antonius Poker After Dark hand.. classic 
| | Monkeyman2121/KRichads in 2012!
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| biggprman Posts:405
 MVP

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/17/2008 11:49 AM |
Alert | Jim, Im not sure if this is what you want to hear but here it goes. I started in my early teens playing gin with my aunt and uncle. My aunt had an incredible memory and remembering cards, I wanted to learn that. So I just started throwing cards out and trying to memorize them one by one and trying to guess the last four cards or so. So I guess it started there, because up until that point, I really just played the value of my cards. When I started NLHE, I was consumed by the mechanics ans rules of the game. And just played again, the value of my cards. dropped anything that looked mediocre. Then I started playing cash and met a friend, Mike. Mike had a very odd betting strategy and after playing LONG sessions with him almost every night for about 2 months, I realized that he used alot of tools I didnt. He also played some very odd cards that i didnt get....but I learned how he did it. At the end of the night, Mike and I were usually up, but he had usually surpased me in profit, almost every time. So I decided to relearn the game.
To this date, Im still trying to perfect this. For about 3 or 4 months I tried to play every two cards that had potential. I guess the only cards I dropped were cards that had no straight potential (2-10off) or flush. I was stunned at how many times these cards hit. Up until this point, I was playing about 1 in 10 hands and just being aggressive with these, but came to realize lize that I made no opportunities to get in the small pots to feed my blinds and stack. Still respecting the raise when it was in early...things like that
Thats where Mike help me. I literally had to relearn to game by exploiting his play for a few months and see what worked and what didnt. Im still trying to master this without getting in trouble. I also went back and reread Slansky's Hold Em Poker for Advanced PLayers. He covered some of this too.
It has impoved my overall game, but Im still learning the threshold on what cards I can play against raises, position, agression..etc.
Charlie | | | |
| SterlingAug Posts:528
 MVP

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/20/2008 7:38 AM |
Alert | I learn to learn by playing against the best players I know and watching their moves, what they play, and how they play it then I use that against them. I read every poker book I can find and try to put several new ideas into play every game.
I think this way is working for me. | | | |
| millerd33 Posts:1771
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/20/2008 4:01 PM |
Alert | I never learn. | | Just Ace King | |
| griff49 Posts:2782
 Elite

My Poker Profile
 | | 12/22/2008 12:47 PM |
Alert | | I've learned that slow-rolling the nuts in a back room card game against a burly man 3x your size isn't the best way to extend your life. | | | |
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