Gorilla Posts:730
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| 8/27/2009 12:36 AM |
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$1-$2 NL about 4 hours into the session, I've built my initial $300 to $700.
Villain sees a lot of flops and calls raises with a wide range of hands.
The play in question comes immediately following this hand:
Villain and three other players see a flop for $12.
Flop 999
Villain (from the BB) leads out $100 into a $50 pot
Middle position player calls
Turn J
Villain bets $75
MP calls
Villain bets $65
MP reraises all-in for $200 more
Villain tanks for a long time and eventually folds showing 10 10
MP didn't show, but we all assume he had the 4th 9
NEXT HAND (Villain $400, Gorilla $700)
I get AA in MP and raise to $15, two callers including the villain
flop 994 (two diamonds)
Villain (in the small blind) leads out $50 into a $50 pot.
What's the play? |
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mccarn256 Posts:98
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| 8/27/2009 9:04 AM |
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| Damn that K-9 offsuit! Reraise to 150 see where you're at-he'll only call if he hit and you'll push out the flush draw. Well, maybe! |
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llDayo Posts:339
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| 8/27/2009 9:12 AM |
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| Villain's holding an overpair or a suited Ad (maybe A4?). His bet may be a jam made to look like he hit a 9. |
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jonnyquest Posts:135
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| 8/27/2009 9:31 AM |
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| Well the villain may well be on tilt after that last hand. So this is a tough call. I would reraise to see where i was at. but it is a tough call. |
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that's poker http://mybankrollchallenge.wordpress.com/ |
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Gorilla Posts:730
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| 8/27/2009 12:06 PM |
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Like the early thoughts...Jim/PL/Carlos/Seth/anyone else chime in!
McCarn...if you raise to 150 and the Villain shoves for 250 more...what are the pros/cons of folding/calling? |
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jgambles Posts:346
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| 8/27/2009 1:19 PM |
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| I would probably put his stack all in. If you lose you're back even, if not you've increased your money 3x. I think you should put him all in to see what he's got, you seem like a good enough player to build your money back up in case you lost. |
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hansgow Posts:355
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| 8/27/2009 4:12 PM |
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| I would smooth call. At this rate, if your opponent has a flush draw he's not going anywhere. He may shove if you raise. The goal is to make your move on the turn. If your opponent has absolutely nothing, you give him a chance to catch up a little. If he has a flush draw, its a safer move to get the money in on the turn. If your opponent has a 9 and you just call the flop, he may think your on the flush draw, or if he has any inferior hand, he may overplay it thinking he's ahead when you just call. |
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corron10 Posts:678
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| 8/27/2009 4:26 PM |
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Do you have the Ace of Diamonds?
Its likely he could have a 9, but probably not.
I would flat too, and re-evaluate on the turn. |
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mccarn256 Posts:98
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| 8/28/2009 8:14 AM |
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Your villian in the previous hand controlled the betting and folded a boat to the re-raise. If he pushes after you reraise 1.5x the pot then I would assume he hit and save the other $250. If he folded a boat to a re-reaise, odds are he'll fold a draw and only shove if he made the 9's. Its nice that jgambles thinks that you're good enough to rebuild your stack, but why would you want to? |
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Carlos Posts:117
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| 8/28/2009 3:39 PM |
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Jeff you started this post by saying that the villian saw a lot of flops and called a lot of raises with a wide range of hands. With that being said, I have no idea how he was playing his hands after the flop except the one that you mentioned. With him laying down that full house to nothing but a possible nine, I would take it that he was a pretty savy player.
A 15 dollar raise in AC is nothing to a lot of people. His range of hands could be any Ace, any pair, two face cards or suited or non suited connectors. When the board shows a pair on the flop with that player having that kind of range, I would be very hesitant to get involved too heavy with him. You only have 15 dollars invested at this point. Sure you could gamble and possibly win a big pot but you could also lose most of your profit with this hand.
You only have two options at this point that are worth talking about. You either shove over the top or you turn your aces face up and fold. If you push and get called, you are probably beat. If you fold, you will tell him that you are capable of folding a big hand and you can use that to your advantage later on. You are not running a marathon but a steady race to increase your profit margin. You don't need to do it all at one time.
With all of this being said, I am going to gamble and see what he is made of. I'm all in. I hope you came out ok. |
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PirateLawyer Posts:329
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| 8/30/2009 12:30 PM |
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This situation is incredibly read-dependent. I think I am likely best here vs. all the 4x combinations villain could have. I would likely call, trust my read, and hope that villain fires again so I can win the maximum by letting him bet for me. After all, if we're ahead, our victim is drawing thin. No need to raise and blow him off the pot just yet. If a miracle ace comes off on the turn and villain actually is holding a nine, we will stack him comfortably ...
NB. I would never fold AA face-up here. |
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Gorilla Posts:730
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| 9/01/2009 3:59 PM |
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Thanks for all the insights/info....especially from PL who says it's a play based on "feel." I thought I was going crazy because some people I talked to said it was an auto shove.
After his $50 bet into a $50 pot, I go in the tank and here's what ran through my cranium.
As Carlos wondered..the villain's post flop play was a factor in my assessment. Earlier in the day when I'd raise pre and he'd call, the villain was content to check and fold to a c-bet. So the fact that he over bet the pot out of position was a red flag. I also considered the "tilt" factor that he was either steaming OR trying to make it look like he was steaming to get me to bite on his made hand.
I mull over his possible holdings...44 for a flopped full house....many combinations where he holds a 9 and flopped trips (A 9, K9s, 10 9, etc.)....a suited Ace of diamonds where he's on the nut flush draw. (I have two black aces)
I consider my betting options....
min raise to $100.....may or may not give me information on where I stand...but I can feel confident folding if reraised right here....if he calls..the next card, bet, and my read are tbd.
shove...takes all poker out of the equation...If I'm ahead, Villain either folds and I win $100....or calls and I can scoop $400 or get sucked out on....if I'm behind I'm nearly dead...I don't have the Ace of diamonds...so I can't save myself with a backdoor flush draw...and would need to hit a two outer to win the hand.
call....passive play that I feel is the worst of all the choices.
fold...defensive play that I prefer not to do, but weighing the pros and cons I only have $15 invested and can live to fight another day while not risking my $400 profit that I was able to build through solid play.
raise...3x to $150. This is the move I contemplated the longest. This may slow the villain down...or it could keep him pressing forward where he has the chance to reraise all-in. My feeling was that he was willing to got to the mat on this hand...either with the goods or a last gasp effort to recoup what he just lost the hand before and is willing to go broke.
If villain reraises all-in right there...am I committed to calling $250 more? I'd say "yes" because, how can I justify folding after betting $150 when I could have folded for free? Getting all the money in here (or if he just calls I'm sure the rest goes in after the turn) doesn't give me any more info. If villain does shove after my 3x bet....what have I learned? I'm back to square one because I still don't know if he has the goods or is steaming.
Debate on two moves...as I weigh the pros and cons:
Reraise 3x: (which will ultimately be a $400 bet) PROS: I'm ahead and will win a big pot. CONS: I'm behind and virtually dead OR he hits the flush or miracle card and I'm back to my original $300 buy in. This isn't poker it's gambling, which I wasn't comfortable doing after playing well all afternoon. I built my stack on knowing where I stood most of the time and making solid, calculated decisions. I really had no idea where I was in the hand.
Fold: Pros: I only have $15 invested and preserve my stack. CONS: I have the best hand and miss an opportunity where I'm a heavy favorite to nearly quadruple my starting stack.
I was really in a defensive mode and didn't want to be baited into doubling him up. I had a strong feeling that the overbet was a bit of a trap because he knows, I know he's steaming. He also was playing pretty conventionally post flop most of the day.
I opt to fold and move on.
A lot of people will say this is a pussy cat move and I've lost my genitalia. But I'm a tight player who, in the last year, has opened up his game enough to take advantage of weak players and to gamble when I have a pretty good sense of where I am in the hand. I felt by getting the money in bad and losing 4 hours of profit on what I deemed a "gamble" was worse than the up side of having the chance to take down a big pot.
Villain's reaction...he tables pocket queens. I show no emotion, congratulate him on a good hand and don't let anyone know I had bullets. I agree with PL that showing AA here is a bad move. I don't think at a 1-2 table that the play is sophisticated enough to understand what it means to lay down a big hand.
I think it gives them a license to try and make moves on you and that you could become a target with opponents thinking, "if he (gorilla) can lay down aces, I can get him to laydown other hands when he (gorilla) has the best of it.
To me that's just another variable that I'll have to decode in the future...is my opponent legit or trying to force me out a hand. I rarely show...it's usually not worth the time and aggravation.
Conclusion:
After mulling everything over for the last week...I'm glad I folded, even though I was way ahead (somewhere in my mind I'm assuming the villain was going to river a queen anyway!)
As we all try to learn and improve our games my hindsight is in overdrive. I think reraising to $100 or $125 would've been the slightly better move. It would have given me a chance to take down the hand if I could freeze the villain and get him to back off (not a guarantee)....or if reraised....it's an easier fold than betting the 3x $150.
The other hindsight sophisticated play I've come up with is to announce "raise" (without a number) and then implement the Chris Short method of psychological warfare. Talk out loud and run over all the scenarios to try and elicite a reaction to see where I am in the hand. The villain wouldn't know if I'm min raising, 3x raising or shoving all-in until after I try and read his reaction to my ploy.
Of course that scenario was thought of 5 days after the encounter and was never a thought at the table.
Thanks for reading and offering feedback!
G-man |
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hansgow Posts:355
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| 9/01/2009 8:25 PM |
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| What is the difference if you attempt the Chris Short method or just calling? The Chris Short method only makes you vulnerable in giving away the strength/weakness of your hand. |
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Gorilla Posts:730
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| 9/01/2009 9:23 PM |
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| Calling gets me no information....with the CShort method I've already committed to raising...it's just a matter of how much |
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hansgow Posts:355
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| 9/02/2009 7:54 AM |
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| I don't understand how calling doesn't get you any information. Your opponent is first to act on the turn. Don't you get information from that? In the Chris Short method, aren't you making your decision after you put in the call? The only difference is, in one instance your opponent is awaiting a bet from you, and in the other instance your opponent is waiting for another card to peel off. I guess I don't see where one spot could help you gather more information than another. |
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llDayo Posts:339
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| 9/02/2009 8:51 AM |
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Posted By Gorilla on 9/01/2009 3:59 PM
As Carlos wondered..the villain's post flop play was a factor in my assessment. Earlier in the day when I'd raise pre and he'd call, the villain was content to check and fold to a c-bet. So the fact that he over bet the pot out of position was a red flag. I also considered the "tilt" factor that he was either steaming OR trying to make it look like he was steaming to get me to bite on his made hand.
So let me get this straight, you've already been involved in hands with this guy who seemed like a decent player. He folded to your c-bet on more than one occassion and you think he'd bet here instead of check raise/call if he had a 9? I think you missed this part while trying to think through your hand. If I'm heads up and out of position against a player that would normally bet after the flop I would definitely check. The last thing I want to do is risk losing those extra chips by being too aggressive. He had a read on you and probably wasn't putting you on a 9 if you raised pre. He saw the flush draw and bet enough to push that out. You definitely should have raised 125-150 here. That would have scared his QQ and most likely would have just called giving you control of the pot. |
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Gorilla Posts:730
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| 9/02/2009 12:59 PM |
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Hansgow...when he bets the turn, where am I in the hand?
Lldayo...I was completely outplayed on the hand and happy to learn a lesson for $15. (unless you count the $400 I COULD have won, but with little or no information that was less than a guaranteed)
The reason for putting up the white flag was because I was fairly certain he was willing to put his last $400 in the middle (tilt factor), so you bet $150 and he shoves, what's your play? Are you saying you'd insta call because a good player wouldn't be that aggressive if he did in fact hold a 9?
Pot sized bets are over bets to push out flush draws. I don't think I was perceived as a player who would call on a draw if I wasn't getting the right price...so I wasn't sure why he was betting so much.
This guy over bet on back to back hands. (First one he flopped a full house...not sure what $100 into a $50 pot gets you, but everyone in the building new the caller had the other 9 and his betting pattern on the turn and river were just as bad as the bet on the flop).
So my read was...he's got something, I just don't know what. I'm either dead, way ahead or could be potentially against his flush draw. I didn't feel comfortable without an educated guess. The price was potentially too high to try and figure it out. Had I not seen the prior hand he was involved with, the outcome would've been much different. Without question that impacted how I played the hand and didn't want to be sucked in to him being on tilt.
Don't you love this game...so many variable, possibilities and ways to read and react!
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Gorilla Posts:730
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| 9/02/2009 1:02 PM |
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PS...LLdayo is your assessment based on the fact he showed QQ? back to my original question...if you bet $150 and he shoves what's your play?
What if I fold and he tables 44 for a flopped full house...is this then a good lay down? I'm trying not to look at this as "results based" poker, but on how players would interpret the available information and how they would react to it. |
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Shortpro Posts:223
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| 9/02/2009 1:19 PM |
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| Remember it takes a highly skilled professional with expert reading abilities to implement Chris Short tactics. Not for the faint of heart. Proceed with caution. And beware - many will think you're an a-hole. |
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Gorilla Posts:730
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| 9/02/2009 2:03 PM |
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My favorite was at Champs a few back when I was in a hand with Jedi Mind Trick (Chris) and another dude. There's a post flop bet and Chris raises, I figure I'm way behind and fold. After the turn, JMT begins with "are you on a flush draw? I can even tell you what ace you have!" Turns out neither player had an ace and the one I folded would have been good!?!?!?!
I folded before JMT, but was still mesmorized by the comment and was convinced Chris had an ace. Psycholocigal warfare at it's finest.
I don't think Chris won the hand, but it was entertaining.
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hansgow Posts:355
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| 9/02/2009 5:52 PM |
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Posted By Gorilla on 9/02/2009 12:59 PM
Hansgow...when he bets the turn, where am I in the hand?
When you say raise, and stare at your opponent looking for a read, where are you in the hand? At least if you call, you can see the reaction of your opponent when the turn card is peeled. Also, what is the difference if you call and he bets out on the turn, or if you raise after the flop and he shoves? The only information you may gain there is that he doesn't have an under pair. However, that also means you've successfully elimanted all the hands you had dominated and failed to collect the maximum amount of money from an inferior hand. You also would have increased your odds against any bricked flush draw by just calling on the flop. Therefore, if you get the money in on the turn your either very likely a minimum 80% favorite, or an unfortunate 5% dog to win the hand. Other things to think about. If you just called and he did lead out with a bet, with a missed flush draw. If he makes another pot sized bet, are you unable to determine what he has from that? What if he only bets half the pot? What if he overbets the pot? I think any overbet would tell you he doesn't have a 9. A pot sized bet might be a little scary, and that puts you in the toughest predicament. A 1/2 to 2/3 pot sized bet, would also seem like your opponent is 9-less. So don't ask me when he bets the turn where are you in the hand, consider the amount he would have to bet to convince you he has that 9 to further validate a tough laydown. I just see a lack of information here with 1 bet on the flop to be able to lay down your hand, unless we're playing the tightest of all tight players. I'm also not saying raising is a bad option, but I almost think the correct raise you would have to make would pot commit yourself, in which case you really are back to square one with your dilemma.
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Gorilla Posts:730
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| 9/02/2009 9:26 PM |
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| If I say "raise"....I'm not staring..I'd be chatting him up to illicit a reaction...ala CShort. It was a "throw away" line that was something I thought about after the fact. I don't think it would lead to much success. I think between, raising, calling or folding....that calling is the worst of the three choices. |
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hansgow Posts:355
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| 9/02/2009 11:22 PM |
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My personal opinion is that folding here is weak and the worst of the 3 choices. (I read an article, and if your making laydowns like this at this point, you've been at the table for too long and should stop playing) If your opponent holds a 9, he's making a solid play by betting big, considering your a tight player and could have a big pair that would be tough to laydown to that flop, otherwise his big hand turns out to only a $30 profit. There is a misconception I'm having with this villain. You said he likes to see lots of flop and call raises with a wide range of hands. Not sure if you played with him for the full 4 hours or not, but something you never mentioned was the villains willingness to get involved in a big pot after losing a big hand. Most players after losing a big hand, don't just call big raises preflop the very next hand with a marginal holding. Therefore, do you not believe that should have also been in consideration in determining if your opponent held a 9 here? You seem to be afraid of him being on tilt. However, usually people on tilt don't play hands very well, so you could also use that against him here in likely not having a 9, because if he did he'd probably check hoping to trap. I don't know, so many reasons why not to put him on a 9 at this point, I would have paid him off 10 to 1 that he wasn't holding 44 here, not sure why thats considered unless you think he's a retard pricing out a draw that doesn't beat him.
One last thing, do you really learn from making bad folds or making bad calls. You said this was a $15 lesson learned from being outplayed. IMO when you make bad folds, its because you made a bad read. If you make a bad call, its because you made a mistake. You learn from mistakes, not so sure you should try to learn from a bad read. |
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llDayo Posts:339
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| 9/03/2009 8:54 AM |
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Posted By Gorilla on 9/02/2009 1:02 PM
PS...LLdayo is your assessment based on the fact he showed QQ? back to my original question...if you bet $150 and he shoves what's your play?
What if I fold and he tables 44 for a flopped full house...is this then a good lay down? I'm trying not to look at this as "results based" poker, but on how players would interpret the available information and how they would react to it.
My assessment was based on his bet sizing. A pot-sized bet to me would indicate an overpair and if you're making folds like this you're missing out on a lot of money. Any other bets lower than pot would indicate a 9 or flush draw trying to jam. If he had showed 44 then he made a serious mistake trying to get money from you in a heads up situation. The chances of that happening are fairly slim and you don't have enough information to put him on 44. |
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acstony Posts:640
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| 9/03/2009 10:39 AM |
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Posted By hansgow on 9/02/2009 7:54 AM
I don't understand how calling doesn't get you any information. Your opponent is first to act on the turn. Don't you get information from that?
Yes, you get information from that, BUT he also gets to see another card. Is the info from his original hand or has it improved on the turn? |
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