River Chasers - Poker Tour
Register | Login

play online poker  philly2nite logo.JPG

 Forums
Subject: PRE FLOP MATH (reposted)
Prev Next
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Author Messages
Jim
Posts:2918
Elite
Elite



My Poker Profile
10/01/2009 11:31 AM Alert 

Reposted from the link below - Great stuff

 

Preflop maths: A2s on the button

Been running bad at tournaments and running/playing bad at heads up cash, it sucks, we've all been there, blah blah blah no one wants to hear me whine. Anyways, I've been doing a lot of math the last couple days to tighten up my preflop game, and I was very surprised by some of the results I got, in particular the following situation:



Middle Stages of a big field Stars MTT. Blinds are 125/250/25. 9 handed table, we're on the button with 5000 chips, both blinds cover. It folds to us on the button with A2s. Whats the play?



First let's determine if shoving is profitable, because if it is then folding can't be right. Assuming perfect calling ranges from the blinds (A2+,22+), shoving shows a small profit of 52.1 chips (plugging the ranges into SNG Power Tools), not much but worth taking and better than folding. However that's a totally unrealistic calling range; vs a more realistic but still pretty loose range of (55+,A7s+,ATo,KQs), shoving shows a very substantial profit of 298.8 chips, more than a big blind. So folding is out.



The question now is whether making a standard raise is going to be more profitable than shoving. Let's say we decide to make a raise to 600 and fold if anyone re-raises. So when both blinds fold we win 600 and when one of them re-raises we lose 600. For this option to be better than shoving, we need both blinds to fold about 3/4 of the time, so each player has to be folding about 86% of the time (or re-raising about 14% of the time. Against anyone with a clue how to play tournaments, you are going to get reshoved by any pair, any suited ace, most offsuit aces, and most broadway hands, and probably some other smaller suited hands. That range is a lot more than 14% of all hands, so raise/fold is not going to be better than shoving. Your opponents would have to be extremely tight for raise/folding to be better than shoving, and most opponents aren't nearly that tight.



What I didn't consider here is how much of a profit we'll show when someone calls our raise. It's impossible to calculate what will happen on every single flop, but A2s isn't going to flop very well and I doubt we'll show a huge profit postflop with the stacks so shallow that our opponents probably wont fold if they hit something.



Another option is raise/calling, but thats only going to work well if your opponents are each re-raising about 38% of their hands, and without reads people aren't going to be nearly that crazy. This option is also much much higher variance since you're going to be all-in without great equity vs your opponents ranges a huge % of the time. While shoving seems like it would be high variance, its actually not that high since both of your opponents will be folding over 3/4s of the time. Raise/folding is by far the lowest variance option if your opponents are never calling, but if they do call your raise there's gonna be a ton of variance postflop.



When I started cranking out these calculations, I was surprised by how much better shoving was. Even though these big overshoves are becoming more and more popular, it still feels weird to just bomb in 20 BBs in a spot where you're behind when called. But when you start running the numbers you realize why it's become so popular.



I recognize I didn't show my work here, I didn't cuz I thought it would be too boring, if people really want me to I will.


http://riggstad-nutstraight.blogspot.com/index.html
FisherM
Posts:1676
Elite
Elite



My Poker Profile
10/02/2009 1:42 PM Alert 

cliff-notes version:

 

Math... blah blah blah... percent ... blah blah blah... variance... blah blah blah... range... blah....blah...

BUTTON SHOVE.

 

 


http://pokerdegen.blogspot.com/
DiggerB
Posts:1547
Elite
Elite


My Poker Profile
10/02/2009 3:56 PM Alert 
what has become of the world. Jim writes Fisher length posts and Fisher responds with Jim like retort.


Just Bust a Move
hansgow
Posts:355
MVP
MVP


My Poker Profile
10/02/2009 6:46 PM Alert 
Watching Phil Helmouth on TV, I just don't see him making this type of move with an A2s. I could be wrong but he seems to be one to do the raise/fold, or maybe just smooth call, because his game seems to be to play with his opponents head with slow play and deceptive strategy. If your playing extremely tight, never limping into a pot, playing 1 or 2 hands in the past hour, is doing the 600 raise seen the same way as the situation above? We all say poker is a game of skill with some luck. The skill is the math, the luck is the result. Much of the result is due to more than just the running out of the cards, it also has to do with table image. Just ask Dan Harrington when he shoves on a guy who holds QQ with an A and K on the board for all his opponent's chips. Once Harrington's makes that move, I'd say its the majority of bad luck that his opponent calls than Harrington's poor skill of not thinking his opponent would fold there. Does that make sense? Should the math be calculated the same way for just any player making the decision to shove, or just a certain type player in particular?
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Forums > Poker > Poker Strategy > PRE FLOP MATH (reposted)



ActiveForums 3.6

  

 Live chat. You must be logged in to enter.

  

 Users Online Minimize
Membership Membership:
Latest New User Latest: KyleMeyers
New Today New Today: 0
New Yesterday New Yesterday: 17
User Count Overall: 34767

People Online People Online:
Visitors Visitors: 0
Members Members: 0
Total Total: 0

Online Now Online Now:

  

 
Copyright © 2007 Riverchasers Entertainment, LLC   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement